[shadowfax]

Since I've joined this forum I have come to realise that ''Boydie'' talks a lot of sense!!
every time I came across one of his posts/reply's ...it made sense
what prompted me to write this post is when I read in a post a reply from Boydie and
I quote,

 ''Verse-pre chorus-chorus-verse-pre chorus-chorus-bridge-chorus-chorus''

Now..I already knew this and I'm sure lots of peeps out there knew it also but I suddenly realised that every time I'm writing a song I do not follow this mantra..and I should be!!!

Thank you Boydie for making realise the obvious that somehow I was missing...

go figure,

best, Kevin

[Wicked Deeds]

Good advice from Boydie and I've done that many times but I've got to stress ever so strongly that there are many ways to successfully write a song that follow a different format!

Paul

[shadowfax]

Good advice from Boydie and I've done that many times but I've got to stress ever so strongly that there are many ways to successfully write a song that follow a different format!

Paul

I take your point but if one writes a song in this format you've got all the bits intya!!! which can be arranged (or not) any way you desire..put in..left out..whatever but all the bits are there..

best, Kevin

[Dogmax]

I think if you where in the business of writing songs with the idea for say pitching to music publishers or within that area then yes Boydie method of  ''Verse-pre chorus-chorus-verse-pre chorus-chorus-bridge-chorus-chorus''  would be right.

But if not then you write what way you want and using what ever method you need, i for one couldn't write with the thoughts of ''Verse-pre chorus-chorus-verse-pre chorus-chorus-bridge-chorus-chorus'' because some of my songs don't have a chorus and as for a bridge i always thought the music decides if a song needs a bridge or not the same way a song sometimes tell you "hey mate i need a chorus"

I guess the most important thing is, write the song.

[Boydie]

Phew! - I read the title of the thread and thought I was going to get a slamming!!!

This is one of my favourite "discussion topics" - the "rules" of songwriting

As we all know there are no "rules" in songwriting and because songs are so subjective what one person loves another will hate

However, one thing (of a gazillion things) that can make a song sound "good" is to make it sound like the massive hits that "Joe Public" will unconsciously recognise

I therefore believe that there are rules/tricks/techniques/tools/ you can implement to make your songs sound more like the songs people recognise, which will help them "connect" with your song, which will probably make them more likely to like it

This is essential for pitching (whether you like it or not) but can also help to make any song "feel" more professional and help people engage with it

One such trick (and IMHO the most important) is structure

Currently the most popular (by far) structure is the one described above

After an important and exciting announcement in the next SongwriterSelect podcast, which will be available very soon: http://songwriterselect.com/  I will be able to back this up with some interesting facts and figures (watch this space  )

However, DOGMAX is spot on that the structure chosen should be the one that suits the song, and (IMHO) gives the song the best chance of connecting with the listener

Eg

if you want to create an initial impact then why not start with the chorus?

If you have a "story to tell" why let a chorus get in the way of the story?
         - why not just use verse-verse-verse-verse (etc.)?
         - or have a "mini chorus"/ refrain by simply repeating the last line of each verse?

It is these things that move you from "songwriting" to "songcraft"

For me the writing part comes from the heart and is the "arty" part

For some this is all that is required/desired and I respect that

For me my favourite part is applying the "craft" to try and make my writing sound as "professional" as possible - which means making them sound like previous hits - which means learning the "rules & tools" of songcraft - and when to break them to suit my needs

So I suppose my real mantra is:

"learn the rules so you know how to break them when you want to"

[benjo]

 hey guys

 yeah I'm with dogmax

 I'm always trying new ways to put a song together
 I also think a good publisher is looking for new, fresh, different
 god knows what they thought when rap broke onto the scene
 but how many famous top artists have collaborated with rappers
 I think if your song works go with it and it could be the next big break through
 will'i'am who does the voice UK collabed with an opers singer
 he said it's just not done but he did it not my thing but we all have different taste


               BREAK THEM THERE RULES



 

[Paulski]

Good topic. For me the arrangement and production of the song are all part of songwriting. These elements play so big a part in the listener's emotional connection to the song, that if not enough attention are paid to them, it's like a craftsman carving a beautiful chair and not putting stain and varnish on it to bring out the wood-grain and shine, or a painter painting a masterpiece and hanging it in a darkened room. Our songs deserve better than to be just an idea scratched out in an mp3!
My two cents CDN 
Paul

[shadowfax]

I think what I was really trying to say but failed miserably was that if you write all the bits...(we all know what bits I'm talking about) then you can arrange the song how you want..the important thing is ..
having all the bits..put in..leave out..start with chorus..start with the end..whatever...

one problemo I came across with the last song I posted was that after I'd written all the bits I thought it was to darn long so I wasn't able to do the repeat chorus thing with it unless I dumped the guitar break..
maybe I should have dumped the guitar break..not many songs have guitar breaks now do they..

best to all, Kevin