[Serotonin]

Hi, haven't posted here in a while but I've hit a brick wall in my writing.
I've been listening to a lot of very vocally melodic music of various genres lately such as Simon and Garfunkel and a bit of Bon Iver. Listening to the song 'Holocene' (slightly addicted) I can hear that there is a catchy guitar riff and a beautiful vocal part which both seem to intertwine but also seem independent of each other (both are intricate but by no means the same melody). Anyway, after hearing the song I wrote a set of full lyrics (which can be posted if it helps) and hear a distinct melody, complete with chorus variations and backing vocals, in my head. What I can't do is write a good guitar riff to go along with it and have no idea where to start. I can write riffs, and i can write lyrics but I can't put them together or write a guitar part specifically with a particular vocal melody in mind. This is the biggest barrier to my writing at the moment so I was wondering if anybody had an tips on how to add a riff to carry a song when you already have a specific vocal part in mind  

Thanks, forums like this have been a massive benefit to me as a musician so any help is appreciated  

[Boydie]

I would recommend recording your vocal and then whilst it is playing back noodle on the guitar to find a riff that fits

By recording the vocal you can "detach" yourself from the vocal melody, which will free your mind up to concentrate on coming up with a guitar riff

If you are trying to sing the vocal whilst finding a complimentary guitar riff you may be limiting yourself

It doesn't need to be a proper "multi-track" recording (although with free software such as audacity and garage band there is no reason why it shouldn't be) - a recording on your phone would be sufficient

[R.G.S]

I play scottish traditional music and when it comes to composing a 'tune' I often experiment with different tunings. My theory is that sometimes it's very easy to become stuck in a rut due to muscle memory and when you are noodling and trying to make something new, your fingers fall into the same old places and you end up writing the same licks.

With a different tuning your fingers may fall on the same frets but the notes and sequences will be totally different. The feeling of being totally unaware of where to go next with an unfamiliar tuning can lead to some cool results.

Let us know how you get on.

[AdamHarkus]

I find this impossible, I always need a melodic idea first, then fit the Lyrics around that.

As I result the lyrics do tend to suffer though

[hardtwistmusic]

I have an unconventional solution for you. 

For $30.00 (at least that's what it cost me years ago) you can download a software called "Microsoft SongSmith.   If you have a melody in your head, and lyrics, you can set the software to a style, then sing your melody into the microphone. 

The software "hears" your melody and provides compatible chords.  (It's actually a "chord generator.")

NOW... you have a beat and some music to work from as you create your guitar music. 

You can select instrumentation for about five instruments and turn off any instruments that get in your way of writing your guitar work.  As a way to "write songs" Songsmith is extremely hit or miss.  If you get a finished product that works, you were lucky. 

As a starter, (which is how you'd be using it) it's all but infallible.  It WILL create a framework you can create within.

Hope that helps.   BTW.... I understand that "Garage Band" has an option to do the same things, but I don't know for sure that is true.

[Helena4]

Ugh, this problem is the bane of my life. My lyrics flow in weird ways that don't seem to lend themseles to any sort of guitar part I can come up with, and my guitar parts are usually okay to sing over but the nonsense that I come up with ruins them. The few times I've actually made 2 good parts by fluke, I suddenly have an idea to make one better, and thus the other part is destroyed. Actually I'm not sure I ever create 2 actually good parts - I seem unable to get my hand out of my mouth and create a vocal line that is not exactly what I'm playing. That's why when I do the lyrics first I can't make a guitar part because it just uglily lies on top of my masterpeice lol.

Microsoft songsmith seems interesting...

Mostly I probably need to buy a mic so I can focus on my guitar and such completely.

[Neil C]

Here's the thing you don't actually need any instrument to write a tune. Lyrics and melody will suffice. get that down to a regular beat/metronone then you should be able to decide what chords underpin that.

I am to that the fantastic First time I ever saw your face by Ewan MacColl was sung down the telephone to his wife and he didn't play an instrument.

 
Neil

[MartynRich]

Trying to recreate music I hear in my head is the bane of my songwriting life. Practice, practice practice is a good place to start. Just keep jamming and jamming until you come up with something usuable. You´ll get better each time.

If you have a riff in your head, the other thing you can do is record it vocally then try to work it out on the guitar, keyboard etc...I´ve written many things this way and it seems to work well for me at the moment. If you find you can´t work it out, or don´t come up with exactly what you hear in your head, that´s not necessarily a bad thing. Until you become expert at doing that, remember that at least you´re making progress! The result may be slightly different to how you intended, but that´s not a bad thing.

[4LF4LF]

My lyrics flow in weird ways that don't seem to lend themseles to any sort of guitar part I can come up with, and my guitar parts are usually okay to sing over but the nonsense that I come up with ruins them. The few times I've actually made 2 good parts by fluke, I suddenly have an idea to make one better, and thus the other part is destroyed.

To me this sounds like an absolutely excellent song. Lyrics flowing in weird ways? That's ace! Lots of bands do this and you probably don't notice because you've heard it so many times. This sounds like a really good song in progress, the fact that everything is kinda jarring and fighting will make it sound all the better when finished.

My problem is more often the opposite, that the chords are basic and the melodies are basic. When you've got weird lyrics fighting against a guitar melody, that means you're onto something.

I know it's hard to give advice, but just try and create a melody that sits, and then play it over in your head a hundred times when you're in the shower, going for a walk, etc. Until it clicks together.

For me, 90% of song writing is done when I am partaking in daily life, far far far away from guitars or microphones.

[Martinswede]

Hi S!

Riffs are to me often circulating around a few basic chords. When I got a looper pedal
for my guitar I started to learn a lot. If you play acoustic its harder. And then there are some
riffs that are tough to put chords to. My advice is for you to start simple. Just some small
fills between the chords. And remember that you are inspired by true geniuses. Listen a
bit to instrumental music to clear your head( why not 'Angie'). Like R.G.S. wrote an alternate
tuning might give you some new ideas. Open G for example DGDGBD. And let it take time.
Maybe your not in a writing phase but a learning one. If there are such things. For me they
are mixed together. Play covers. Do what ever as long as you don't get passiv

Good luck,
- Martin

 

[mikek]

I would recommend recording your vocal and then whilst it is playing back noodle on the guitar to find a riff that fits

By recording the vocal you can "detach" yourself from the vocal melody, which will free your mind up to concentrate on coming up with a guitar riff

If you are trying to sing the vocal whilst finding a complimentary guitar riff you may be limiting yourself

It doesn't need to be a proper "multi-track" recording (although with free software such as audacity and garage band there is no reason why it shouldn't be) - a recording on your phone would be sufficient

i don't write in the style described, (writing lyrics and dreaming up a melody in my head) but if i did, i think the above is how i would approach attempting to create accompaniment. 

what i do is discover a musical movement (for me its on guitar) and almost simultaneously, a vocal melody occurs to me, which i then develop into words, etc... i believe that the approach i take to writing is probably the majority approach.  I think the way described by the OP is a much more difficult way to attempt to write songs.

that said, i do write poetry in free form prose, from which i mine lyrical content.  but in no way does this prose come out of me in a musical context as it is being created.

[Wicked Deeds]

I'd suggest linking a chord progression and fingerpick a rhythmic pattern.  That should suggest a melody to you - simply hum or sing a melody that's differs from the guitar.  There isn't an easy way around this. It's about training yourselff to commit the chord and rhythmic fingerpicking to muscle memory.  You can then connect with the music and write a melody which goes in a different direction.  I suspect that's how Paul Simon approached his writing.  Everything that you have been influenced by and the emotions that are evoked when you play, seemingly, magically merge together.  It's about putting the hours in.   A first, you may not be happy with the results but enough exposure to this style of music and practice will yield results. I don't see an easy solution to this othe than to practice until it becomes second nature.

Paul

[The S]

Hi S!

 

What the...?!?!?!?!

I'M S!!!

  //S

[Skub]

Hi S!

 

What the...?!?!?!?!

I'M S!!!

  //S

Too many Ss and it will sound like the forum has a leak.

[Mike67]

Lots of different approaches, and I guess they all work.  I probably do most of them.  I sometimes write lyrics as I might write a poem, so with a rhythm rather than a tune. Sometimes I'll write a lyric to an existing tune; the last was a song for a historic project about union uprisings in the UK, put to the tune of downtown train (Down The Porter, by Rusts) - you'd never know, sometimes I'll just play chords and see what lyrical phrases and melodies come out of it. The key thing is write everything down, record every idea there and then, regardless of whether you're in the supermarket or speed-dating. The more material you have to play with, the better.

Mike