[Nick Ryder]

Hi all,

I am looking for some advice please about something that happened fairly recently.

About 18 month's ago, I wrote and recorded a song called Time to Walk Away. I registered it with PRS, made a music video and uploaded to YouTube.

Then, to a long story short, a couple of months later a guy (who is a professional established singer / songwriter) got in touch to say that he loved the song. He also asked me if the song was finished. I told him that yes, it was but nevertheless, has asked me if I minded if her recorded a version of it. I was flattered and said no problem. He also asked me to send the backing track which I had recorded, which I did.

About a week later he sent me a mix of his version with his vocal. I noticed that he'd changed some of the lyrics and also the title to be 'Time For Me to Go'.

He asked me what I thought and I said that it was a great vocal performance, but I didn't understand what he'd changed some of the lyrics. He told me that he thought they sounded better.

And that was it until about a year later. I'd logged onto PRS to register a new song and I noticed that he had registered this sone as a 50/50 co-write and also used the title 'Time For Me to Go'.

He got in touch a couple of weeks to tell me he is releasing a new album and he wants that song to be on as (in his words) "I think this is one of the best songs I have ever written".

But he didn't write it. He did a version and changed some of the words without my permission.

Have any of you experienced anything like this before and if so, what advice would you give?

Thanks in anticipation,


Nick.

[Sterix]

I take it the 50/50 co-write is yourself and the artist.

From my limited experience I can offer two pieces of advice:

1) Lay down the ground rules beforehand.

Just saying "sure, use my song" gives people (at least in their opinion) carte blanche to do with it what they wish artistically. Apart from the risk of them butchering your song, it also means they can make changes to your song that you may not be happy with.

So discuss what they're expecting to do with the song so you both know what they're allowed to do with it with respect to things like lyrics).

Which brings me to...

2) Agree the royalties split beforehand.

Or, at the very least, discuss them. Get them in writing if you can.

For this song, for example, you may see the royalties as a third for music, a third for lyrics, and a third for performance (so you 2/3rds and him 1/3rd) where as he may see it as 50-50 because he sees himself a co-writer (I've heard of lots of stories of even major artists claiming co-writing credits for changing the odd couple of words).

---

Those are the two most important I can think of. It very much depends on what you want to get out of the collaboration though.

[Wicked Deeds]

Hello @Nick Ryder would you be able to post the two versions.  I'm simply interested in your work. 

A few years ago, I posted lyrics on this forum to a song called "Photographs". Someone wrote a full backing track including a top line melody keeping the lyrics exactly as I had written them and sent it to me.  The musicianship was of a high standard and  the vocals quite lovely but it wasn't the plan that I had for this song and so I reported it to one of the moderators who immediately saw my side of things and asked that person to refrain from doing such things.  Common courtesy was simply lacking and as I have said, I had my own pan for the direction the song would take.  In fact, I already had a rough recording of guitar and vocal.  It's now produced and I might add it remains as I intended in the early stages of writing. 

It's simply unacceptable that someone can presume to take your creation without consent and then claim a writers credit for amendment.  Stick to yopur guns and be thankful that you had previously registered your work.

Paul

[shadowfax]

Send them a lawyers letter telling them they cannot use it!

[Nick Ryder]

I take it the 50/50 co-write is yourself and the artist.

From my limited experience I can offer two pieces of advice:

1) Lay down the ground rules beforehand.

Just saying "sure, use my song" gives people (at least in their opinion) carte blanche to do with it what they wish artistically. Apart from the risk of them butchering your song, it also means they can make changes to your song that you may not be happy with.

So discuss what they're expecting to do with the song so you both know what they're allowed to do with it with respect to things like lyrics).

Which brings me to...

2) Agree the royalties split beforehand.

Or, at the very least, discuss them. Get them in writing if you can.

For this song, for example, you may see the royalties as a third for music, a third for lyrics, and a third for performance (so you 2/3rds and him 1/3rd) where as he may see it as 50-50 because he sees himself a co-writer (I've heard of lots of stories of even major artists claiming co-writing credits for changing the odd couple of words).

---

Those are the two most important I can think of. It very much depends on what you want to get out of the collaboration though.

Thank you so much.

The problem here is that it is the first time something like this has ever happened to me. Call me naive but all I was expecting was that he would record a cover version. I'm very new to this as back in the 90's when I was writing, everything was taken care of by the guitarist in the band who had his own mini Label.

I will certainly learn from this experience and know the signs if something similar happens again.

For now though, I am going to stick to my guns I think.

Thanks again.

[Nick Ryder]

Hello @Nick Ryder would you be able to post the two versions.  I'm simply interested in your work. 

A few years ago, I posted lyrics on this forum to a song called "Photographs". Someone wrote a full backing track including a top line melody keeping the lyrics exactly as I had written them and sent it to me.  The musicianship was of a high standard and  the vocals quite lovely but it wasn't the plan that I had for this song and so I reported it to one of the moderators who immediately saw my side of things and asked that person to refrain from doing such things.  Common courtesy was simply lacking and as I have said, I had my own pan for the direction the song would take.  In fact, I already had a rough recording of guitar and vocal.  It's now produced and I might add it remains as I intended in the early stages of writing. 

It's simply unacceptable that someone can presume to take your creation without consent and then claim a writers credit for amendment.  Stick to yopur guns and be thankful that you had previously registered your work.

Paul

Hi Paul, thanks and I'm very sorry that happened to you. I can post you a link to my version, but I only have his version on mp3. What's the best way to send you that?

[Nick Ryder]

Send them a lawyers letter telling them they cannot use it!

Ha. I would but lawyers cost way more than I can afford 

[Sterix]

Well I wish you luck! I'm very protective of my "intellectual" properties as I see them so I understand very well when someone messes around with them (and then tries to claim credit). I've been lucky in most of my collaborations in that, when changes were made, I was usually involved in those changes. Even if I wasn't 100% satisfied with the outcome at least I had input.

[PaulAds]

Hello Nick

I've had a listen to quite a few of your songs...you're a really talented fella.

I'd be chuffed that someone was wanting anything to do with anything I'd written.

I think it's basically the old "1% of something is more than 100% of fuck-all"

If you think you might be going places, then hold out for more...but for no-hopers like me...I'd love to be able to tell a sorry tale of how some twat ripped me off. I think I'd perhaps even enjoy that more than I'd enjoy any actual success...not that either are likely

If you know who he is, and you were annoyed enough...you could always go round there and knock him out.

[Wicked Deeds]

Hiya Nick,

Sorry for the late reply.  I've been snowed under with work.  If you could send a link via personal message on the forum, I'd be very grateful. 
It is annoying when it happens but I'd be of the same opinion as @PaulAds and would welcome someone nicking a song if it led to success.  It's like confirmation that what you do has been worthwhile!

Paul

[CorkingCrackBand]

you could always go round there and knock him out...

... a real first rate meal - really make the sod feel guilty he messed with such a fine cook. That's what you meant by that, yeah @PaulAds?

Hang on, that would be knock him up a real first rate meal... well now I have no idea what you meant. 

CCB